I love, that shared knowledge 😁, here we send greetings from Uganda in East Africa we are Young Environmental conservation Initiative a community based organization 🙏
Another insightful read! We could achieve so much, in every country around the world, by raising the level of discourse to disputing information rather than typifying those who challenge us. Unfortunately, educating the public is never the priority in debates like these. It would add so much value…
Thank you, and yes, that’s exactly the nerve I was trying to touch. We reach for labels far too quickly because they’re emotionally satisfying and they save time, but they also shut down the one thing we actually need, which is a shared understanding of what’s true, what’s uncertain, and what the trade offs are.
And you’re right about public education not being the priority. A genuinely informed public makes debates harder to control, because people start asking better questions about methods, incentives, and who benefits. But without that baseline, we end up stuck in this loop where every challenge is treated as a character flaw rather than a prompt to improve the evidence and the policy.
If we could normalise disputing information in good faith, and being transparent about limits and uncertainty, we’d get better outcomes and a lot less heat.
Hopefully we can make progress towards all of this on Substack! I’d love to see your take on ammonia pollution and how it could be managed better and if room can be made for animal welfare in this debate too (I hope so). There is a lot of education that needs to happen around agriculture, and I know that I have not been exposed to enough farmers’ perspectives. Just thought I’d put it out there 🤗
So true, productive conversations are hard without food system stakeholders working from a shared data picture they’ve built up together. Perhaps this is what governments should ideally facilitate - as they sit between the private sector and campaigners. Good data is an objective starting point not an immediate justification for any specific agenda, whether that’s fighting regulation or calling for it.
You’re right. Good data should be an objective starting point, not a weapon. Without that shared foundation, we end up debating trust and intent instead of debating what to do next and how to measure whether it’s working.
I would be highly sceptical of Sustain's claims, simply because they are hoping (it would seem to me) that people will treat the output from their model as hard data.
It is one of the greatest problems in the climate debate that people treat output from models as if they have the same fidelity as measured data.
That Sustain seems to be trying to pull the same trick (even if they know they're not the same) makes their assertions suspect in the extreme.
I don't disagree Ian, my article if anything was trying to be too unbiased because I am normally a big supporter of Sustain and Compassion in World Farming but as you say Sustain clearly states these maps are model and not factual. However I would have liked the National Pig Association to at least support their pushback more hard data than just an approximate %.
The fact I keep coming back to is that with factory farms it is common for them to be abusing the system. Just this morning I have been sent an enquiry into a farm in York breaching rules for Animal welfare, Removal of animal byproducts & pollution/run off and to be frank I see these problems all the time!
So the grey area is that both Sustain and NPA are probably correct in some respect. Sustain is correct in saying the pollution cause by Factory farms that do not abide by Animal plant & health rules are estimated to produce ammonia pollution shown in the map. And the NPA are correct in saying those who follow the APHA rules and have strict biosecurity and welfare management produce very limited ammonia pollution because the rules are so strict.
I guess what I'm saying is that if Sustain etc want to be taken seriously they need hard data and not a "model". I think if GBS was alive today, his maxim would be "There are three sorts of lies: Lies, Damned Lies and the output from computer models...."
I have been following your work for a while now, and I am truly inspired by your dedication to Permaculture and regenerative farming. It is always encouraging to connect with someone who shares such a clear, actionable vision for a sustainable future.
I reach out to you on behalf of the Uganda Sustainable Community Initiative. Our organization is deeply committed to driving environmental resilience and promoting sustainable development within our local communities. After reviewing your efforts, it is clear that our missions and values are closely aligned.
I would love to connect with you and learn more about your current projects. I believe there is a wonderful opportunity for us to support each other’s work and explore potential ways to collaborate, ultimately amplifying the impact we are both striving to achieve.
Are you open to a brief chat or a virtual coffee sometime next week to discuss this further?
I love, that shared knowledge 😁, here we send greetings from Uganda in East Africa we are Young Environmental conservation Initiative a community based organization 🙏
Thanks for subscribing! I look forward to reading about your work!
Sounds pretty good to hear from you, ☺️🙂 we are always open to share ideas 💡 and eager to learn from you us well
Wonderful
Another insightful read! We could achieve so much, in every country around the world, by raising the level of discourse to disputing information rather than typifying those who challenge us. Unfortunately, educating the public is never the priority in debates like these. It would add so much value…
Thank you, and yes, that’s exactly the nerve I was trying to touch. We reach for labels far too quickly because they’re emotionally satisfying and they save time, but they also shut down the one thing we actually need, which is a shared understanding of what’s true, what’s uncertain, and what the trade offs are.
And you’re right about public education not being the priority. A genuinely informed public makes debates harder to control, because people start asking better questions about methods, incentives, and who benefits. But without that baseline, we end up stuck in this loop where every challenge is treated as a character flaw rather than a prompt to improve the evidence and the policy.
If we could normalise disputing information in good faith, and being transparent about limits and uncertainty, we’d get better outcomes and a lot less heat.
Hopefully we can make progress towards all of this on Substack! I’d love to see your take on ammonia pollution and how it could be managed better and if room can be made for animal welfare in this debate too (I hope so). There is a lot of education that needs to happen around agriculture, and I know that I have not been exposed to enough farmers’ perspectives. Just thought I’d put it out there 🤗
So true, productive conversations are hard without food system stakeholders working from a shared data picture they’ve built up together. Perhaps this is what governments should ideally facilitate - as they sit between the private sector and campaigners. Good data is an objective starting point not an immediate justification for any specific agenda, whether that’s fighting regulation or calling for it.
You’re right. Good data should be an objective starting point, not a weapon. Without that shared foundation, we end up debating trust and intent instead of debating what to do next and how to measure whether it’s working.
I would be highly sceptical of Sustain's claims, simply because they are hoping (it would seem to me) that people will treat the output from their model as hard data.
It is one of the greatest problems in the climate debate that people treat output from models as if they have the same fidelity as measured data.
That Sustain seems to be trying to pull the same trick (even if they know they're not the same) makes their assertions suspect in the extreme.
I don't disagree Ian, my article if anything was trying to be too unbiased because I am normally a big supporter of Sustain and Compassion in World Farming but as you say Sustain clearly states these maps are model and not factual. However I would have liked the National Pig Association to at least support their pushback more hard data than just an approximate %.
The fact I keep coming back to is that with factory farms it is common for them to be abusing the system. Just this morning I have been sent an enquiry into a farm in York breaching rules for Animal welfare, Removal of animal byproducts & pollution/run off and to be frank I see these problems all the time!
So the grey area is that both Sustain and NPA are probably correct in some respect. Sustain is correct in saying the pollution cause by Factory farms that do not abide by Animal plant & health rules are estimated to produce ammonia pollution shown in the map. And the NPA are correct in saying those who follow the APHA rules and have strict biosecurity and welfare management produce very limited ammonia pollution because the rules are so strict.
I guess what I'm saying is that if Sustain etc want to be taken seriously they need hard data and not a "model". I think if GBS was alive today, his maxim would be "There are three sorts of lies: Lies, Damned Lies and the output from computer models...."
Hey Helen,
I have been following your work for a while now, and I am truly inspired by your dedication to Permaculture and regenerative farming. It is always encouraging to connect with someone who shares such a clear, actionable vision for a sustainable future.
I reach out to you on behalf of the Uganda Sustainable Community Initiative. Our organization is deeply committed to driving environmental resilience and promoting sustainable development within our local communities. After reviewing your efforts, it is clear that our missions and values are closely aligned.
I would love to connect with you and learn more about your current projects. I believe there is a wonderful opportunity for us to support each other’s work and explore potential ways to collaborate, ultimately amplifying the impact we are both striving to achieve.
Are you open to a brief chat or a virtual coffee sometime next week to discuss this further?
Looking forward to connecting with you.
Best regards,
Tumwine Desan
Founder and Director
Uganda Sustainable Community Initiative